INTERVIEWS

Early Work

     Beginning in the spring of 1994, I interviewed several personalities to gain a firsthand perspective of the progression of vents associated with the origins of the Correcting Time, the Teaching Mission. Those interviewed were the Millers in New Zealand, who were part of a small group who made the first contact with a being who called himself Machiventa Melchizedek, and three members of a group in Woods Cross, Utah, who embraced the phenomenon in New Zealand and formed the initial Teaching Mission group in the United States. What follows includes a compendium of these interviews.

Jesse Thompson
Spring 1998


INTERVIEW WITH "JOSHUA" THERN BLACKBURN

March 14, 1994

JESSE:    Can you describe your religious background?

THERN:    As far back as the early '70's, even earlier, in the '60's, I questioned a lot of the things they taught because they just didn't sound true. The church taught that God is a vengeful and wrathful God. That just never sat well with me. On the one hand they tell you God is a kind and loving Father and the next that He's a vengeful and wrathful being. It couldn't be both in my way of thinking. So, I left the Mormon Church and became inactive in the '60's. Then I got remarried, and the lady I married wanted to be active in the church. I tried teaching her the things I believed, and she kind of went along with it. Then in 1977 I came across The Urantia Book. It answered most of the questions I had. Of course, it gave me a lot of other questions. My wife and I thought it was wonderful, and we became active again.

JESSE:    What were the occupations of your parents?

THERN:    They were farmers in Utah.

JESSE:    So you grew up on a farm?

THERN:    For the first part of my life.

JESSE:    What kind of educational background did you have?

THERN:    I only went through high school.

JESSE:    Did you start working right out of high school?

THERN:    Yes, I went to the service in World War II. Air Force, it was Army Air Force back then.

JESSE:    After the service you went back to the farm?

THERN:    No, my parents had moved. We were only on the farm until I was twelve years old. Then we moved to Touele, Utah, and my father worked as a mason, in construction. Then they moved back to a fruit farm, and that is where they were when I got out of the service. I went to Hill Field Air Force Base and worked up the ladder until I got into an engineering group. I was a machinist to begin with. Then I left Hill Air Force Base in '57 and went to work for Sperry Univac as a process engineer.

JESSE:    What does a process engineer do?

THERN:    Oh, you write the operation sheets; order tools, dies, and all the things you need for a machine shop to run.

JESSE:    What kind of parts did you make at the machine shop?

THERN:    For the Sergeant Missile.

JESSE:    Did you work for them for the rest of your working life?

THERN:    I took a medical retirement in 1986.

JESSE:    What made you believe The Urantia Book was true?

THERN:    It went along with how I felt and believed. All the questions I had from the church it answered.

JESSE:    Can you remember other things that you questioned besides God being wrathful and vengeful?

THERN:    That was the main thing.

JESSE:    How did your progress with The Urantia Book go from '77 on?

THERN:    We started a study group. Julia Fenderson came up just to visit. We heard about her from the Foundation. She was the Western Field Representative at the time.

JESSE:    Was she the only person at the time you knew was reading The Urantia Book?

THERN:    Oh, no. We got a study group started.

JESSE:    Where did you actually find the book?

THERN:    A friend from Oregon found it in a hippie book store. He phoned me about it. That was the first I ever heard about it.

JESSE:    How did you get in contact with other Urantia Book readers?

THERN:    I called the Foundation.

JESSE:    And they gave you a list of readers in your area. When you called them had they been meeting already?

THERN:    Yes, there were four or five people that were meeting. We started going to their study group. They were more New Age type people. They soon quit.

JESSE:    They were more interested in New Age stuff?

THERN:    Yeah.

JESSE:    Pretty soon they quit coming, and you were by yourself?

THERN:    Yeah. In the meantime I had spread knowledge of the book around to quite a few people. So, we got a study group started.

JESSE:    Who was in that study group?

THERN:    Why do you need names?

JESSE:    Because I'm researching how this thing developed. Maybe you can tell me how many people were involved in it.

THERN:    There were about five. Only one of those is still in the group.

JESSE:    Only one? I assume that was Jeremiah. How do we get from there to right before the Teaching Mission started?

THERN:    When my wife died, well, when I retired in '86, she was dying of cancer. So, we had stopped having study group. After she died, we got started again. This time there were some other people in it: my sister; Rebecca who became the T/R, Jeremiah, Sheila, and Mel. Then I became area coordinator for the Fellowship, or Brotherhood. I guess the people down in New Zealand who were receiving teachings from Abraham got a hold of the list of the area coordinators, and they mailed me some literature.

JESSE:    Was this the letter dated July of '89, approximately?

THERN:    Somewhere around there.

JESSE:    Mac and Babs?

THERN:    Yeah. So, we wrote them back. We were receptive, and we all talked about it and it sounded good it sounded real. Most of the answers they got from the U.S. were negative.

JESSE:    So, you received some literature in the mail from New Zealand, and I assume you brought the letter to a meeting, and you read it to the group, and the group immediately thought it was true?

THERN:    We all prayed about it. We all came to the feeling that, yes, this is true. So, our letter back to them was positive. Most of the replies they got were very negative. We got a letter back from them saying our faith had been noted. And that was all.

JESSE:    You sent a letter to them. What was the nature of the letter?

THERN:    I can't remember; it's been too long. I remember we said that we believed and supported them in what they were doing, and if there was anything we could do to help to let us know. Then Rebecca called and said that she had received information that our group was going to get a teacher; she'd received that from her Thought Adjuster. Approximately two years went by and nothing had happened.

JESSE:    Was there any mention of her being in the Reserve Corps of Destiny or anything like that?

THERN:    No.

JESSE:    When did she call and say you were going to get a teacher?

THERN:    Sometime in '89. I can't give you a date because I don't know. Anyway, in February of '91 she said she had received a message from this person who was going to be our teacher, and his name was Ham. He would be at our next study group.

JESSE:    Did you ask about this message? Was it a voice?

THERN:    No, it was just thoughts in her head. That Thursday, February the 28th, '91, we had our study group, and Ham talked through Rebecca to the group. It was quite garbled; he had never done this through her before, and she had never been a T/R. But what came through sounded pretty good.

JESSE:    Where did the word T/R come from? Do you remember?

THERN:    They told us she was a transmitter/receiver, so we just shortened it to T/R. We met weekly on Thursday nights for some time and told more people that knew about The Urantia Book, and they told more people, and our group just kept growing.

JESSE:    What in your opinion accounted for the fact that Rebecca could transmit and receive? Were there any factors in your mind that allowed her to be able to do this?

THERN:    She is a very spiritual person.

JESSE:    What do you mean by "spiritual person"?

THERN:    Religious, I guess.

JESSE:    Your impression of Rebecca was that she had no question as to her religious beliefs?

THERN:    She believed in the teachings of The Urantia Book; she was a member of our study group. Knowing her, the words that came out of her mouth were really not her own.

JESSE:    What was different?

THERN:    As busy as she was with her dry cleaning establishment, she didn't have time to sit down and memorize a message she was going to give us. Then, as time went by, you could see that the knowledge that was coming through exceeded her knowledge. She talked about things she didn't know about. We all felt that this is good; this is right; this is true.

JESSE:    Physically, did she transmit with her eyes closed? Did she meditate before?

THERN:    She would sit down and close her eyes, and it might take about ten minutes before Ham would start coming through.

JESSE:    A low voice or loud?

THERN:    It was her normal voice; she never did talk loud.

JESSE:    Did she stop periodically, or was it a constant flow?

THERN:    It was very slow; there were quite a few pauses. She would say words that she didn't even know the meaning of. We would talk about them afterwards.

JESSE:    Would she remember what she had transmitted afterwards?

THERN:    Most of the time she remembered bits and pieces but not the whole thing.

JESSE:    How did it proceed?

THERN:    The people in the group would tell friends about it. Out of curiosity they would come. We got approximately 40 people at one time.

JESSE:    What do you think happened to all those people?

THERN:    About half were coming out of curiosity. When Ham quit giving us messages, they dropped out. I believe most of them still believe in The Urantia Book.

JESSE:    Do you think they still believe in the Teaching Mission?

THERN:    I think they do, but they don't come to the study group now.

JESSE:    A lot of people get enthusiastic, but after a year or two that enthusiasm wanes.

THERN:    We have been told by two or three different teachers -- now it is not in our group, two groups out in California -- their teacher told them that they projected before they even started that only about 25% of attendees would remain. We've got more than that; we've got pretty close to 50%.

JESSE:    I think what has happened to your group is pretty typical of many groups, as you point out.

THERN:    Anyway, I was tape recording these and then sending these tapes out to different people -- I don't know how they heard about us.

JESSE:    Do you remember any of the people that you sent tapes to?

THERN:    Ila H. in Kansas City, Missouri. She spread the word to quite a few people, and then they would call.

JESSE:    What tapes were you sending out?

THERN:    Tapes of Ham's meetings.

JESSE:    Just tapes of the time, would you send them the first tape?

THERN:    Just tapes of the time. I was running them through a computer to cut out the pauses and the coughs and all the other stuff that I could. I could usually get an hour and a half meeting onto a 45 minute tape; that's how slow Rebecca would talk.

JESSE:    Those tapes were pretty good quality?

THERN:    Yes, fairly good. Oh, groups would call and ask how they could get a teacher. In the beginning we had to ask Ham, and he we appoint a teacher to their group.

JESSE:    Did he tell you what teacher's name would be?

THERN:    Occasionally he did, if asked. He never volunteered that information.

JESSE:    Which was the first teaching group there for you?

THERN:    As far as people getting a teacher, it was Rayson in California. However, a group didn't get started then. A group from Tallahassee, with Teacher Will came on second. Rayson was teaching privately to a couple people in California prior to Will's getting the group going.

JESSE:    Your knowledge is that Rayson began teaching in Los Angeles to just a small number of people. Had Duane contacted you and discussed what you were doing?

THERN:    I contacted him. He was an area coordinator and so was I.

JESSE:    You had known each other prior to him contacting your group? You had known each other because you had an area coordinator meeting?

THERN:    Yes.

JESSE:    And you called him up...

THERN:    That's what I'm not free to discuss.

JESSE:    I've discussed with Duane -- he and I are pretty close -- and he discussed with me an episode with Michael Landon. Is this what you are referring to?

THERN:    I'm talking about the healing part of the Mission.

JESSE:    Exactly. I'm well aware of the sequence of events there from his end.

THERN:    That was why I called him. We were supposed to get in touch with Michael Landon. Now how the hell can I get in touch with Michael Landon? Well, Duane Faw lives in Malibu and so does Michael. I'll call him.

JESSE:    Did Duane ask you at the time about Teacher Ham?

THERN:    He was very skeptical. Then he thought, "Who am I to make this decision? This is up to Michael Landon." So, they tried contacting him. He was receiving I don't know how many thousand calls a day, but he received over 50,000 phone calls, messages etc. He ought to do this, do that. That was what got Duane interested.

JESSE:    Your group was told to contact Michael Landon. This was through Ham?

THERN:    No, it was through my Thought Adjuster. I asked Ham about it, and he verified it. Then the next group to come on line was Daniel's group up in Pocatello, Idaho. One of the ladies in our group, her father and mother and her two brothers-in-law were all killed in an airplane crash. The sisters were on another plane. They were in small airplanes up in the Salmon River area in Idaho. You can't drive a car in; the only way you can get in is to fly in. So, this lady in our group, her two sisters, and their children were in one plane, and the parents and the two brothers-in-law were in the other, and that plane crashed coming home from their vacation. So, this gal sold her home here and moved back to Pocatello to her parents' home with her sister. She told her sister about Ham. Her sister worked with Bill Kelly, a school teacher, I guess. He mentioned that they have a Urantia study group up there. He hadn't heard about what was going on in Salt Lake, but they had also received information from New Zealand and kind of shrugged their shoulders. They didn't accept it or reject it.

JESSE:    They had received it through the grapevine, not because they were involved with the area coordinator?

THERN:    I don't know. They asked if we could come up and tell them about what was going on. My son and I went up. This would be between Christmas and New Years of '91. We told them what was going on, and they asked if they could come to one of our meetings. So, we invited them, and they came down and liked what they heard, and they got a teaching group going with a teacher named Daniel. I would say they would be the third group to come on.

JESSE:    Meanwhile what was happening with Ila? Did you keep in contact?

THERN:    No.

JESSE:    How about Indianapolis and Welmek?

THERN:    My sons Todd and John got a job back in Chicago, a temporary thing. We were told by -- I think it was Abraham -- that this was mission oriented. They went back and helped the group in Chicago or Naperville. These people in Naperville knew the ones in Indianapolis, so they all went to Indianapolis. My sons helped the group in Indianapolis get started, answering questions of curiosity.

JESSE:    Your sons were attending regularly your group in Salt Lake City?

THERN:    Yes, until they went back to Chicago, and then they started attending there. Orin was the teacher there, I believe. My sons went to Indianapolis and went out to dinner with these people and answered all their questions. They requested a teacher and got assigned one, and that's how they got started.

JESSE:    To the best of your knowledge this was the fourth group?

THERN:    No, the fourth group would've been Orin's. I can't say this for sure because Sarasota came on line with a teacher. I don't know the sequence.

JESSE:    They probably heard about the mission through Will's group.

THERN:    That's right.

JESSE:    Let's go back to the situation with the meeting with Ham in Los Angeles in February '92.

THERN:    He directed us; now this came through Rebecca. He wanted to address the Council and the Fellowship and for us to make arrangements. So, I got a hold of Duane and between us we tried to get the Fellowship to let us have time to have a meeting during one of their breaks, and they wouldn't do it. So we made arrangements to do it in the hotel adjacent to the one they were in.

JESSE:    Do you remember who you were contacting at the Fellowship?

THERN:    The president, Martin Myers. He wouldn't go along with it and requested that we not do this. We told that to Ham, and Ham said regardless of what he wanted, they still wanted to address the Fellowship.

JESSE:    Ham told you to tell Martin Myers that regardless of his desire?

THERN:    He didn't tell us to tell Martin. He told us that regardless of what Martin Myers wanted, that he, Ham, wanted to address the Council. So, we proceeded and got the hotel next door.

JESSE:    Do you remember the name of the hotel?

THERN:    No, I don't. Quality Inn, I guess.

JESSE:    So you arranged a conference room?

THERN:    That's right. At the same time that they would have a break from their schedule. Very few of the counselors came to the meeting.

JESSE:    Was Duane on the Council at the time?

THERN:    Yes. He's been a member for years.

JESSE:    You went down with Rebecca? Who went from your group?

THERN:    Jason, Richard and his wife, my two sons John and Todd, and Jeremiah.

JESSE:    How did you let the Council know that you would be accessible?

THERN:    We put up signs in the lobby of the hotel where they were meeting. We had attendance of roughly 140 people, maybe only five or six from the Council.

JESSE:    Where did the 140 come from?

THERN:    Attendees of the Fellowship conference.

JESSE:    There was an actual conference going on of Urantia Book readers from all over the United States?

THERN:    Yes.

JESSE:    Coincidentally, there was a General Council meeting scheduled at the same time?

THERN:    I can't tell you that.

JESSE:    Was there a specific time for your meeting, just one announcement?

THERN:    Yes, and Rebecca T/Red Ham. She sat on the stage. It was raised a couple steps. She sat on a pillow.

JESSE:    She took how long to come on line, you think?

THERN:    I don't know, five minutes, maybe ten.

JESSE:    You had a microphone?

THERN:    Oh, yes. We taped it. We mailed them out to anyone who wanted them.

JESSE:    Do you remember how many council members there were at the time?

THERN:    Oh, yes, like I say, there were only four or five that attended.

JESSE:    Out of how many who attended?

THERN:    Thirty-some odd. There's thirty, aren't there? They thought we were infringing on their rights. They didn't want us to do it. They didn't believe in the Teaching Mission, and of course they still don't. I was told I would probably be dropped as an area coordinator, and later on I was.

JESSE:    Did they ever give you a reason why they dropped you?

THERN:    No. I was asked, "How would you feel if you weren't an area coordinator any longer?" I said I couldn't care less. This is far more important, the Teaching Mission and Ham and what they were doing, than being an area coordinator. They renewed my term for one year, and when that year was up I didn't get renewed again.

JESSE:    When were you asked this?

THERN:    At the meeting there in Los Angeles after Ham had talked.

JESSE:    They asked you how you would feel if your area coordinator status wasn't renewed?

THERN:    Not in those words. They said how would I feel if I was dropped as area coordinator. I told them I couldn't care less.

JESSE:    Was that the end of the conversation?

THERN:    Basically.

JESSE:    They were concerned about new readers of The Urantia Book finding out about the Teaching Mission?

THERN:    Yes. They didn't want us contaminating them.

JESSE:    How has the Teaching Mission changed you?

THERN:    It's made me a more active believer. I think I've received spiritual growth out of it. How it's changed me, I can't really tell you.

JESSE:    Did you receive any further contact from New Zealand?

THERN:    Some of the people in our group mailed letters to them, but they wouldn't answer. We were told by Abraham that their public ministry was over, and they were receiving teachings for their own personal growth and development. So, if you write a letter to them, they probably will not answer you.

JESSE:    You mentioned Abraham several times. When did Abraham start to contact your group?

THERN:    It wasn't long after Ham did. I can't tell you the exact date.

JESSE:    Did you mostly have Ham and Abraham for teachers?

THERN:    Mostly Ham. Occasionally it would be Abraham. Then we had Lazarek. He's supposed to be one of the Most Highs. We had various people drop in; Machiventa, occasionally.

JESSE:    Were you ever struck by anything that was just wrong, in error?

THERN:    When we started receiving our spiritual names, which wasn't long after we got started, I was a little concerned about that because The Urantia Book says you don't get them until you fuse with your Thought Adjuster. So, I asked Ham about that; I told him I was confused. He told me this was not confusion, this is change. The day you were born as a mortal they, the spiritual beings, know you by the name you will be given. They really prefer to call you by that than your earth name. This was okayed by Michael. This has turned quite a few people off, the spiritual names, because it differs from the book. Most everything else goes along with the book.

JESSE:    I'm going to close our session here. Thank you, Thern.

THERN:    Thank you. Good bye.

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THERN'S SISTER RACHEL'S ADDENDUM HISTORY NOTES
January 30, 1998

[The following is derived from the notes of Rachel, Thern's sister, on Joshua and the early days of the Woods Cross group]

RACHEL:    My part in the Correcting Time mission began on February 28, 1991 at Rebecca's home in Salt Lake City, Utah. In attendance were Rebecca, Joshua, Sheila, Jason, and I. Rebecca was and is the transmitter/receiver (T/R) for our beloved Ham who introduced himself that evening.

On June 30 of that year I was given the assignment of Gate Keeper for our group. The following are some excerpts of Ham's instructions to me.

HAM:    As one of the first women evangels, you will be given chief responsibility of the orientation of newcomers. We will direct all new inquiries through you. It will be your responsibility to explain the mission in general, to introduce me sociologically, organize study groups, and individuals accordingly. In short, prepare each person to meet me and to receive my teachings. It is Rebecca's responsibility to bring forth these teachings to a moderate hearing level. So, you see, there are roles for new women in the highest ranking positions.

All things which are now occurring in small ways will soon become large and with it your role in coordinating and facilitating and placement will expand.

We wish for you to establish two groups and for you to choose two people to hold these groups once weekly. In groups, place newcomers so that the new ones ask questions and receive answers from older readers so that they may learn gradually the advanced gospel of the kingdom, and I wish for them to begin realizing it as time goes on.

RACHEL:    I did organize two study groups. James and Roinda hosted a group in their home in Murray, Utah, for three years. Melissa also hosted a group in Sandy, Utah, for six months until Ellen and Elward took over. Ellen deserves many thanks for transcribing each of Ham's lessons and storing them on the computer, a service she provides to this day. In January 1995 Ellanor began transmitting Abraham's lessons for the group. Many thanks to her, as well.

Thern's contributions to the mission are numerous. I hope I can do him justice with this short summary. Beginning in March 1977, a Urantia Book study group met weekly at his home in Woods Cross, Utah. They continued for 20 years.

Joshua was told by Ham that he was a "healer" and that he should devote a great deal of time as such. In addition to performing healings for our group, he went wherever he felt he was needed. This took him on many missions to Los Angeles and vicinity; Pocatello, Idaho; and other places.

Joshua recorded the transmissions and made duplicate copies for any who wanted one, mailing them to California, Florida, Idaho, Wisconsin, Kansas. Until Ham left us in November 1992, Joshua continued taping the sessions. He was instrumental in arranging the meeting in Los Angeles for the announcement of the Correcting Time to the Urantia General Council. He was also responsible for publishing the Woods Cross Transcripts of 1991 and 1992.

Our spiritual teachers on several occasions expressed that the mission's growth had surpassed their expectations due in a large part to Joshua's role. His faithfulness and dedication to our Father are illustrated by his hosting of meetings in his home right up to the day before he entered the hospital on June 11, 1997. He completed his life mission and passed away June 17.

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INTERVIEW WITH REBECCA

JESSE:    I'd like to start by asking you when you were born.

REBECCA:    I was born January 18th, 1958, in Salt Lake City.

JESSE:    What kind of home were you raised in; what was your relationship with your parents?

REBECCA:    Both my parents were alcoholics, so we had a pretty rough childhood; we moved all around -- to California, to Salt Lake, back and forth. No religious background; both my parents were atheists, so they raised us that way.

JESSE:    Did you accelerate through college?

REBECCA:    Yes. I graduated from high school early and went right into college. I was living on my own in Huntington Beach [California].

JESSE:    How, at that age, did you support yourself?

REBECCA:    I worked nights in a factory. I was 16 when I first moved alone. I had my younger brother for a while. I made it. I didn't have a lot of money or anything, but I made it through school. I was a straight-A student.

JESSE:    You started out as an atheist. What was your path to the Father?

REBECCA:    It was kind of sudden. I was in college in Santa Cruz, and I was into anthropology, studying about man, why we are here, how this all happened. I really wanted to find out the truth about it. I thought that evolution was the way to find out. The more I studied, the more I worked on it, it just never fit together. Evolution didn't seem to really work.

JESSE:    What was the missing factor in evolution?

REBECCA:    I was working on a particular paper about how creatures differentiated into two sexes. The main thing in evolution is you want to get all your genes into the next generation as much as you can, each individual. So, why would there be a split, and there would only be half? I was researching that and the more I got into it, the more it seemed like everything would just go back into that one-celled animal. I couldn't figure out how it could possibly happen. I was getting discouraged with the whole scientific community. I don't know what exactly it was, but I started reading other authors, more literature.

JESSE:    Were you reading about the origins of man?

REBECCA:    I was starting to expand from that into psychology and things like that. I put my hand out to the Father a little bit. This was when I was twenty. I started thinking "I wonder if there is another way to knowledge? I wonder if there is another way to understand things?" It was the summer before my senior year. All of a sudden I had this vision of Christ, and I just knew there was an afterlife, and I knew there was a heaven, and Jesus was real.

JESSE:    Where were you?

REBECCA:    I was at home. There was so much energy happening that I didn't eat or sleep for three days. I was in this rapture. It really lasted quite a long time, probably about three months before my mind really stabilized back. During that time I was in a mental hospital, and everyone was telling me I was crazy. I had a real breakdown over it.

JESSE:    You had a vision of the Master? You saw an actual physical vision of him? Can you describe it?

REBECCA:    Yes, just his face. It was gold and light all around. It was kind of a picture that might have been in my mind from before that would symbolize him, so I would know that it was him.

JESSE:    Was this so real to you; that you had no doubt that it was him?

REBECCA:    No.

JESSE:    Did you see anything else?

REBECCA:    Yes. That was the main thing. I was having some hallucinations, seeing auras, and seeing just colors for awhile. It was really an intense thing.

JESSE:    You saw this vision of the Master. Did he say anything to you?

REBECCA:    No. All of a sudden I just knew all those things. All of a sudden my belief system shattered.

JESSE:    Because all of a sudden you believed in Jesus, you believed in the afterlife, and your prior belief system just crumbled?

REBECCA:    Yes. It was like I kicked a little brick out, and the whole thing just fell down.

JESSE:    And you coincidentally saw auras, colors, or something?

REBECCA:    I was in a strange place for a while; it was very different. I don't know how to explain it except that my mind was disrupted. Things that didn't have any meaning in themselves all of a sudden became very meaningful, and I couldn't differentiate. Like, I would think that because my coffee cup was blue then that meant something really significant.

JESSE:    Up to that point you were a devout atheist?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    Then you thought, "Could there really be a God?"

REBECCA:    What I was thinking was could there be some sort of universal consciousness I could reach to get knowledge that I couldn't get other ways. Where science would end was there another way to go? I was just sitting there thinking that, and it was really the first time I had let myself think anything like that.

Anyway, I was walking around by the boardwalk late at night and the police came and took me to a mental hospital, and I ended up staying there. I must've signed myself in, I really don't remember.

JESSE:    Through this conversation with the policeman -- he thought maybe you were on drugs or something?

REBECCA:    I don't remember all that was said. Anyway, that's what happened. The establishment -- in these places -- if you talk about God or things like that, they feel that is part of insanity. Spiritual experience is just insane; they don't really accept it, especially if it disrupts you. It's something that they have to fix.

JESSE:    Was this toward the end of the period you describe as a type of rapture or epiphany?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    This took place in the summer of your senior year at college. What year was that?

REBECCA:    It was 1978 because I was twenty.

JESSE:    You were in the hospital for how long?

REBECCA:    About three weeks.

JESSE:    That probably drove you crazy!

REBECCA:    Yes, that was awful. That was a terrible ordeal. I remember the day I was leaving; they couldn't keep me anymore, and the doctor came in and said, "How are you doing?" I said, "I'm just still trying to connect with Jesus." He said, "Oh, you'll be back." That was their attitude: religion can have its place, but it can't be everything to you. When it's that far, then you're nuts. It was really the best thing that could have happened to me. It was the worst thing, but it was the also the best, because I had a lot of ego problems before that. I was a whiz kid in school. I had a lot of accomplishments. All of a sudden that smashed, and my friends shied away from me. It was very hard, but it was good. I must have needed it.

JESSE:    When you said to the doctor that you still wanted to connect with Jesus, that this vision was so powerful, so wonderful, that you kept trying to make it come back, did you try pot or LSD to make it come back?

REBECCA:    No.

JESSE:    Did it ever come back?

REBECCA:    Yes, though not until Michael's birthday celebration in 1992.

JESSE:    Did you finish your senior year?

REBECCA:    No, I went to LA and stayed with my aunt there.

JESSE:    You weren't married at the time; you were single at the time?

REBECCA:    Yes, I got married later. I worked at the same place that my aunt worked, at Reliable Steel Supply Co.

JESSE:    What did you do there?

REBECCA:    I worked in the warehouse.

JESSE:    Were you becoming more stable?

REBECCA:    Yes. After I got out of the hospital I threw away all the drugs they had given me, and that was it.

JESSE:    I get the impression that when you and Thern and Jeremiah got the letter from New Zealand, that you instantly took to it.

REBECCA:    Yes, we did.

JESSE:    I see the vision you had of Jesus as validating. Do you see it that way?

REBECCA:    Spiritual experience can be a very disrupting thing. It can be the most wonderful thing in the world. Now it is to me, but then it was a different situation.

JESSE:    To go from an atheist, to have that all shattered; what you went through, I don't see your reaction as abnormal. What is significant is that you didn't just shake it off and go, "Oh, well, and now back my studies." It changed you for good.

REBECCA:    It changed everything. I started reading a lot. At first I was a little bit in denial, because it was like when people are telling you that you are crazy. For a while I just tried to forget about it. I read Carl Jung and some mystical religions. Pretty soon I was reading everything I could on religion. I moved back to Santa Cruz; and got married, and I started getting into yoga and Buddhism. In the university library in Santa Cruz section on religion I found The Urantia Book. I finally broke down. I kept picking it up and putting it down because I had heard of it before, and it was written by these space men that are going to save the world or something!

JESSE:    Where did you hear that?

REBECCA:    In Santa Cruz before all that happened. A friend of my husband had it, and recommended it.

JESSE:    Did you look at it at the time?

REBECCA:    No, I didn't. I just stayed away from it for a long time. But I had read everything else in the section except The Urantia Book. I was getting sick of all that stuff.

JESSE:    You read everything section on religion?

REBECCA:    Just about. I read the original Upanishads.

JESSE:    You weren't getting fulfilled?

REBECCA:    No, I wasn't. I knew I was learning how to meditate about yoga, and I was trying to figure it all out.

JESSE:    You didn't meditate after you had that earlier vision?

REBECCA:    No. This is later. I finally picked up The Urantia Book, thinking, "What the heck, I might as well just read it; it should keep me busy for awhile." I just fell in love with this book; I read the whole thing and got my own copy, and it's never been out of my life since. That is when my life really changed. I think that's when I finally found something, it was real in spirituality.

JESSE:    What you are saying is familiar because I had a similar experience. This was when?

REBECCA:    This was 1980.

JESSE:    Were you working at the time?

REBECCA:    No, this was a little period when I wasn't working.

JESSE:    Then what happened with The Urantia Book?

REBECCA:    I just kept reading it.

JESSE:    Did you go to any meetings?

REBECCA:    I didn't go to any meetings in Santa Cruz.

JESSE:    When did you start meditating as a practice?

REBECCA:    Around that same time, probably 1980.

JESSE:    How long did you meditate and how regularly?

REBECCA:    Every morning for, I don't remember; it was so long ago now. Sometimes at night.

JESSE:    Did your meditations last a long time or a few minutes?

REBECCA:    Seems like half an hour.

JESSE:    How long did you continue that practice?

REBECCA:    Maybe a year or two.

JESSE:    Were you practicing stillness, or a mantra-filled meditation?

REBECCA:    Stillness. Religion was my whole life at that point; I was just completely immersed in it. I was just searching for the Father's will in everything I did. During that period I got divorced.

JESSE:    Was your new-found religious life all of a sudden incompatible with your present marriage?

REBECCA:    That relationship was so rocky all the way through. Then I met another man and got married again. We moved to Salt Lake and opened a dry cleaning business. I felt like I needed to move back to Salt Lake before that. We came out for a visit for him to meet my parents, and there happened to be a guy selling all of his dry cleaning equipment because he was retiring. It just worked out really fast; everything clicked; we got a building and moved this equipment into it and opened up a dry cleaning shop.

JESSE:    And this was in 19...?

REBECCA:    '85.

JESSE:    What happened between the years of '81 and '85?

REBECCA:    I was still living in Santa Cruz then. I felt a definite direction to contact Urantia Book readers there. I was working in dry cleaning. We had a little money, and we couldn't start a business in Santa Cruz; everything is so expensive. In Salt Lake, everything was cheaper; it was more of a possibility. So, we did. We married in the summer of '84.

JESSE:    What were the circumstances when you got your message?

REBECCA:    I can't remember exactly. We had a little cat, and he was outside, and I was out calling him. It was night. I was walking along and all of a sudden I had this feeling of a presence, the spiritual kind of feeling. It seems to me I was told I was in the Reserve Corps of Destiny, and I was to contact Urantia Book readers.

JESSE:    At the time you had your book, but you weren't in any reading group?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    You were still reading alone?

REBECCA:    Yes. I contacted the Foundation, and they gave me Thern's name.

JESSE:    Can you describe what this presence felt like?

REBECCA:    It wasn't a real intense thing; it was a real subtle thing. I remember those things; so I just did it. I didn't tell Thern about it.

JESSE:    Was it like a thought, but almost like a leading?

REBECCA:    Yes. It couldn't have been a thought of mine. It was definitely a Jesus thing.

JESSE:    Did it say, "Would you like to be in the Reserve Corps of Destiny?" or that you were in it?

REBECCA:    That I was. That was my first assignment.

JESSE:    Did you wonder, "Am I going crazy again?"

REBECCA:    No.

JESSE:    You were pretty firmly planted?

REBECCA:    Oh, yes.

JESSE:    You didn't think about it; you just did it?

REBECCA:    Yes. They (Thern's group) weren't having meetings then, but he said that he could probably call a few people and get some meetings going again. His enthusiasm for the book was so great. I hadn't talked to anyone else about the book before, so it was wonderful to be around someone else who had the same thing. I was really happy. We started having meetings. Then I had a very significant religious experience in July of '86 when we were having these weekly meetings.

JESSE:    So, Thern had called these other people. Who were they? Jeremiah?

REBECCA:    Yes, he came after a little while and Thern's sister Rachel. Melissa. That was all.

JESSE:    Your husband didn't come to the meetings?

REBECCA:    No, he didn't like The Urantia Book; he thought that I was religious to the point of being kind of unbalanced.

JESSE:    Was he Christian?

REBECCA:    No, he was an agnostic.

JESSE:    So, around July '86...

REBECCA:    I was in the back room looking at a dry cleaning magazine; I wasn't thinking about anything, looking at pants presses or something, and all of a sudden it seemed like the whole room filled up. There were beings all over. You know how you get that feeling? I could hear somebody talking, like an angel standing over by me to my left, and he was using a language I didn't understand.

JESSE:    He was behind you or in front of you?

REBECCA:    In front of me. He was like, "Da de da de da de da". Then it was incredible, like the heavens opened up and this voice, very deliberate, distinct, and loud said, "You" pause "are" pause "my beloved child in whom I am well pleased". Then everything was gone. I was crying; I didn't-know what it meant. This is supposed to happen when you fuse, and I knew I wasn't that far along. I didn't know - I still don't know - what that meant, really. I was just in shock; I couldn't believe it, and I went over to the sink, and I had my hands on the sink holding myself up, and it was almost like this hand was on my shoulder and a voice said, "Now take up your work." And so I did. I just worked at the cleaners.

JESSE:    What did you perceive "take up your work" to be?

REBECCA:    I felt it was the cleaners. Just go back to work. Stay steady here. Later on I found out that was Ham. I just worked.

JESSE:    Who do you think the voice was?

REBECCA:    I think that was my Thought Adjuster.

JESSE:    I heard those same words once in meditation, as clear as a bell: "You are my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."

REBECCA:    Really? I didn't know what it meant; I didn't know what to do. I thought this can't be right. It was so loud that I almost turned around. The words were very distinct and separate.

JESSE:    Did you see or feel the beings in the room?

REBECCA:    I mostly felt them. I had an image of shimmering. I don't know how to explain it. Sometimes when there are a lot of spiritual presences I can see a shimmering.

JESSE:    Did you tell your Urantia group about it?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    Then what happened?

REBECCA:    Nothing happened until the summer of '89 - except that I was very much led to leave my husband. That was a very hard thing because he was saying, "What do you mean, God told you to leave me?" He really thought I had lost it, because there was no reason for me to do that. He was going to leave Salt Lake; he wanted to move to Las Vegas. He was really strong about pulling me out of the group; he just thought it was too much, even though it was only weekly meetings, and there was really nothing.

JESSE:    There can sometimes be a little jealousy.

REBECCA:    Yes, a lot, in this case, that there was a part of me where he wasn't involved. I just felt that was the end. I had to stay there; I just knew. So I did. Eventually he moved to Vegas.

JESSE:    So you separated when?

REBECCA:    February of '89.

JESSE:    I, too, believe the voice I heard was my Thought Adjuster.

REBECCA:    In The Urantia Book, that is the ceremony upon fusion. I've always wondered, it was a very premature thing.

JESSE:    At the time that Jesus received that...

REBECCA:    That's where he would have fused but didn't. Some of the angels and others were expecting that he would fuse at that point, but his Thought Adjuster was personalized; it was never going to fuse with his personality. But with us our Thought Adjuster is. I really don't know what it was. All I knew at that point was that I was going to make it; I knew that I was in.

JESSE:    So, from then do you go to regular Urantia study group meetings? From this point on did you feel different?

REBECCA:    I don't know that I felt different; it was a gradual progression all the way. In the summer of '89, I was staying at my grandfather's house, keeping the dry cleaners going, working 14-hour days, six days a week.

JESSE:    Do you have a good relationship with your grandfather?

REBECCA:    Pretty good. He is an old time atheist. He is 97 now. When there was a split between religion and science, he went for science. He doesn't understand any of this; we don't discuss it.

One day I was just sitting on the bed, not really doing anything. This was a really significant thing: another being, just one presence, was there.

JESSE:    I know this is difficult, but try to describe how you know when that happens.

REBECCA:    It was just one of those overwhelming feelings like when you get this rush of feeling that someone is there.

JESSE:    Do you feel pressure in your head? Do you feel vibrations in the room?

REBECCA:    Just a rush of spiritual feeling. I don't know how to explain it. This person, whoever it was, explained to me that there was something that I was to do, and I had to make up my mind, say yes or no. We were going to be like the apostles, and it was going to be hard; there were going to be struggles, and I might have to give up my business and everything. There could be nothing that would stand in my way, if I was going to do this; everything else had to come second. Immediately I had no doubt in my mind, no hesitation at all. I said, "Yeah, I'm in it!"

JESSE:    Did you know the nature of the assignment?

REBECCA:    No, nothing.

JESSE:    You said it out loud or in your head?

REBECCA:    In my head. I remember that it was very much of a warning, and that I had to make up my mind if it was yes or no. I know the apostles had a rough time, but if it was something for the Lord, I would put my life on the line. Then it went away, and I felt I needed to tell everybody else about it, so I did.

JESSE:    In study group?

REBECCA:    Yes. Jeremiah said he was in. They said he was in.

JESSE:    You had got a letter...?

REBECCA:    From New Zealand? No.

JESSE:    Why were they saying they could be in?

REBECCA:    I felt that I had to ask them. I said that this was the thing that I got, that we were going to be like the apostles. You had to be willing to give up everything.

JESSE:    Referring to the group?

REBECCA:    I felt like I had to tell them, too. Definitely for me it was time, but it had to include them, too. They all said yeah, whatever, but nothing happened for a long time. We just sat around and had our group. I remember Thern always had this feeling that something is to happen with our little group.

JESSE:    You kept having more Urantia study group meetings, discussing parts of the book?

REBECCA:    Oh, yeah. We were studying the book.

JESSE:    Did you have a practice meditation or anything?

REBECCA:    No. We would read a paper, and we would all read it. Then we would come back and discuss it the next week.

JESSE:    When did Jeremiah start coming?

REBECCA:    Really early, not too long after everyone started meeting. Then we got the New Zealand letter. Thern told me about it, and I just knew it was true.

JESSE:    This was around early ?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    The letter is dated January but he might not have received it then.

REBECCA:    I don't remember. It seems to me it was a lot later. Maybe sooner. We all read it. I remember but maybe it was around the same time I was told that Abraham said I was of the reserve corps. It seems now that was part of that, but we might have got the letter before and I was thinking it was the other way around.

JESSE:    You thought you heard Abraham was the head of the corps before you got the letter?

REBECCA:    I thought it was true. Then when we got the letter, we wrote back to them.

JESSE:    Weren't you surprised when the letter confirmed what you were told?

REBECCA:    That's why I am questioning. Maybe we got the letter first. Now I think that's probably what happened, that we got the letter first.

JESSE:    Do you think you were thinking about the letter and what it meant?

REBECCA:    I don't think I knew. We wrote a letter back to New Zealand and we asked that question of Abraham, and it was confirmed at that point we didn't know about channeling or anything. We didn't really know what was going on or what this was coming about. Then nothing happened from that summer for a whole year up until February of '91. Then I was working at the cleaners on a Saturday, and I was by myself. At this point we knew that it was channeling; we had a tape, and we knew how it was all coming about.

JESSE:    What was your reaction to the tape?

REBECCA:    I thought it was the greatest thing in the world.

JESSE:    Why? Because it was direct contact?

REBECCA:    No, for what was being said. I remember there was a part in it that said that it was to test to see if people were going to be a part of it or not. I was thinking, "Boy, I really want to be". Then I was pressing pants, seems like I was doing something really mundane I was' working along, and all of a sudden I heard this voice again. He said, "I am Ham, and I will be the teacher for your study group." So, then I knew I would have to be the channeler. I felt okay; I guess I could do it. I'll try. What was coming through I was trying to say out loud. I was trying to ask him, "Where do you come from?" I thought he said "the garden". So, I said, "The Garden of Eden?" He said, "No. Farther". I didn't understand it. Then I was thinking maybe he was part of the Prince's staff because Ham was a three-letter name, and all those guys had those three letter names.

JESSE:    Maybe he was a rebel?

REBECCA:    No, I wasn't thinking that. I was thinking he was a graduate who had come back. I called Thern.

JESSE:    You tried to find out in this conversation where he was from, who he was?

REBECCA:    Yes, and it was just a jumbled-up mess.

JESSE:    Because your thoughts were becoming mixed up with his?

REBECCA:    No, I couldn't understand it.

JESSE:    Was it really subtle?

REBECCA:    Yes. It was like channeling. It was a "thought/word" thing.

JESSE:    Thought/word? Describe what that means to you.

REBECCA:    When it happens it's just like -- individually -- a thought/word comes in, and there's a pressure at that point. I feel it, hear it, know it at the same time. It's one specific word, next one, next one. But at first I didn't know any of this, and I didn't know how I was going to do it. We all got to my house for a meeting on Thursday, February 28th, '91. We tried it, and I did the best I could. We got some kind of information through. Thern was trying to ask, "Where do you come from?" and I was getting "the garden" again, and I didn't say it: Then the meeting was over; that was it; he was gone. Saturday Abraham came to me by myself and said, "Now look, you took this job. It's not up to you to be the editor. It's not up to you to interpret anything. It's not up to you to edit anything." He took me through "this is yes, and this is no."

JESSE:    What do you mean?

REBECCA:    The yes's and no's are more a feeling than an actual word. He told me, "This is the way it is, and if you're going to do this, this is how you're going to have to do it. It's not for you to think about what is coming through."

JESSE:    How did this transaction take place?

REBECCA:    I was in my living room just sitting there, and all of a sudden he was there and started talking to me.

JESSE:    You could hear the thought/words in your head?

REBECCA:    Yes. I remember feeling that he was very stern. As he was leaving I was thinking, "That was probably the best way that they could've handled it." I don't take to being coddled, [like] "You're doing really good, that was great." It's better if someone is firm about it, "This is how it is." That way I really know. I was thinking, "You guys know me really well." It was almost like I got laughter or a smile back, like the feeling you get over the phone when someone is happy. After that it was every week.

JESSE:    February 28th, 1991 Ham came to the meeting. But he contacted you the Saturday before. Did you ever find out if the previous contact was also Ham?

REBECCA:    I never did find out who that was.

JESSE:    The one contact when you were flipping through a laundry magazine?

REBECCA:    That's the one I think was my Thought Adjuster.

JESSE:    So, you began the transmitting process.

REBECCA:    Right there at home. Thern brought an old tape recorder that didn't pick up very well, so a lot of that was lost. After that we got better tape recorders. Thern handled all the tapes and the correspondence, everything. I just came and transmitted Ham and did private sessions when I could on Sundays, and that was it. During the week I'd try not to think about spiritual things because, if I did, I might put something in there.

JESSE:    You tried to not think about spiritual things during the week?

REBECCA:    Yes. Well, I was real busy; I was working all the time.

JESSE:    You would just go in blank and fresh.

REBECCA:    I'd try to as much as I could.

JESSE:    Did you try to suppress your thoughts?

REBECCA:    Yes. I didn't want to think something all week and have it come out in the meeting. I was really worried that I was going to make a mistake, or I would get my thoughts in there somehow and mess things up. After Abraham talked to me I was really nervous about it. It was so important. It was just a miracle. I'd go in there every week and, boy, the stuff would just come through. I couldn't believe it; it would make sentences and paragraphs, and it made sense. At the time I was transmitting, it didn't seem like it was making sense. I didn't try to think about it, because if I did I'd get lost or worried or scared. Sometimes in the middle of a sentence suddenly I'd forget what the first part of the sentence had been. Then I'd be afraid to say the next word. Ham would have to say, "Calm down, calm down." Then he'd say the next word over and over until I'd say it. He wouldn't go back and repeat for me. He made me take those faith steps of just keep going.

I want to bring up some mistakes I made. Once I transmitted "Manitoba" for "Mariposa." And I transmitted "he" for "she" once, got that backwards. The worst one was with the Gabriel appearance. There was a question whether it was material or morontial, and I transmitted "material eyes," that we could see him with our material eyes. That didn't happen, but I did see him with my morontial eyes. A lot of other people did, too. We were all expecting somehow it would be real. When it didn't happen, it was disappointing.

JESSE:    Your contacts before, those pivotal contacts in your life, they were dramatic but not in the material sense, were they?

REBECCA:    No. I don't know how it came about that we were all thinking that. It was all so fantastic having this being talking to us and healing. We didn't know where any boundaries could be. The Gabriel non-appearance was so good because it really showed that it didn't matter; it couldn't influence the mission either way. We could keep going with faith. Ham just kept coming, everything just kept rolling on. It was a really good experience.

Mistakes are easy to do. It all has to come through your mind somehow. Since you are conscious while transmitting, there are times when you can slant the communication a little, even unconsciously, not really thinking that you are doing it. It just can happen. I think that's why it was so important for The Urantia Book to be here first, for the people who would be transmitting for the teachers to have background. It would be less easy to go off on some tangent.

JESSE:    You said it was so tremendous that you didn't know where the limits were. Maybe The Urantia Book provided some limits.

REBECCA:    The way that Gabriel event was, the way Ham was explaining, it was like Gabriel could have appeared if he had wanted or if it was God's will for him, but he chose not to. Ham took it upon himself that we thought that was the way it was going to be. I think it was my fault. I was reading a transmission from Rayson recently who was saying it was some kind of a deep-seated need of mine to see material proof. I guess it could have been, I don't know. I just remember that it was suggested to me, and I was thinking along those lines, and that's how it turned out.

JESSE:    How do you know when a transmission is going well, and how do you know when it is not going well?

REBECCA:    If I have made a mistake, it just stops. He'll say "correction" for whoever is writing it to go back to the end of the sentence and start over.

JESSE:    Did the transmissions always begin with...

REBECCA:    "Greetings, I am Ham"? Yes. They did.

JESSE:    How often was there an invocation like, "May the love of the Father surround us"?

REBECCA:    Oh, I started that. The New Zealand group said Abraham always started with a little prayer to get them in the right frame, and so I started doing that, and it seemed like it helped me start talking.

JESSE:    Would Ham always start by introducing himself to you?

REBECCA:    Yes, always.

JESSE:    Could you elaborate on what "yes" and "no" feel like and what it feels like to transmit factual things?

REBECCA:    "Yes" is more a lighter, top of my head, kind of feeling. "No" is more of a lower, negative feeling. With "yes" I see more light and with "no" I see more darkness.

JESSE:    How about transmitting facts?

REBECCA:    Always I just go word-for-word. I know a lot of people do whole concepts, say the whole thing out, but I don't. I do one word at a time. Usually it works pretty well that way.

JESSE:    Did you usually get stuff that was beyond your range of knowledge?

REBECCA:    Oh, yes. Regularly, every time.

JESSE:    You sound well read in religious works and in The Urantia Book. You have a pretty good religious vocabulary.

REBECCA:    I didn't have anything compared to this. This has been amazing; the insights have been incredible. Most of the time he stays on a level that I can pretty much understand.

JESSE:    What are the most important factors in your mind for getting accurate transmissions across?

REBECCA:    Not thinking about what is coming through, not worrying about it, not trying to influence it. Just say it. Like last week he started out, "The lesson tonight is about vagrancy." I got vagrancy, and I should have gone ahead and said it right away, but I didn't even know what it meant. What on earth is this going to mean? Could this be vacancy? No, vagrancy. Of -- the -- soul. It will explain itself somehow or other. And it did. It's hard to get that trust now even though I've been doing it for so long. Still when something like that hits me, I hesitate. Then, when I read it back, I see where it does make sense, where the sentence stops and begins.

JESSE:    Do you remember a session?

REBECCA:    No, especially right at first I don't remember it very well. What we do is Jared writes it down and then immediately afterwards he reads it back. Then I can remember. It is pretty slow. It takes an hour and a half to get through the message. When he reads it back it only takes like 15 minutes.

JESSE:    So, the words still come out slowly?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    Describe the cadence as it comes out.

REBECCA:    One word at a time with a space in between unless it's something like "going through," two words together describing one.

JESSE:    That's when you feel most accurate?

REBECCA:    Yes. I like to go slow and take time because, if there is a mistake, you can stop right there and correct it.

JESSE:    Do you think Ham is your personal teacher?

REBECCA:    I guess. Nobody else has ever come. In Salt Lake he is also the group teacher. When he started teaching out here, he was the group teacher.

JESSE:    How many people are in your group now in Nashville?

REBECCA:    We've had some people come and go. It hasn't been as strong as in Salt Lake.

JESSE:    Maybe half a dozen?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    Do you feel Ham was with you before all this?

REBECCA:    He might have been but I didn't know about it.

JESSE:    Describe how the way unfolded for you to go to L.A. to transmit for the General Council.

REBECCA:    I think it was communicated to me privately, and I'm not sure who it was that communicated it. I just remember getting the very strong impression that I was to go and transmit to the General Council so that they would know. At the time, I thought I would go by myself and be in this little room with all those people glaring at me. They would probably reject it. I told Thern about it, and he talked to Duane and heard the next council meeting would be in LA. Great. Duane set it up. We rented a room at the hotel next door from where the Council met, and whoever wanted to come could come.

JESSE:    Did you feel it was an important meeting?

REBECCA:    Oh, yes. It let every one know what was going on.

JESSE:    What was it like?

REBECCA:    I sat down and closed my eyes, and Thern introduced us saying we had had teachings for about a year now. I told him to let them know that, if there were spaces between their questions and the answers, to be patient. I always sit in lotus position from back when I used to meditate all the time; I got used to it. So, I got up there, they had a little setup for me. I was really nervous, hoping everything would work out okay, and I think it did. I remember when somebody asked how many teachers are here, Ham said one hundred. Everybody reacted to that, so I didn't go on. But "one hundred now to begin with" is how it should have been.

JESSE:    People reacted in a negative or positive way?

REBECCA:    I remember everybody gasping.

JESSE:    How does it affect you when you hear reactions?

REBECCA:    At that time I froze a bit.

JESSE:    Do you think whether the people in the room where you transmit believe or disbelieve has any effect?

REBECCA:    No, I don't think so. It shouldn't.

JESSE:    The faith dependency is primarily in you?

REBECCA:    Yes. You can't control what others are thinking. If they believe it, they do. If they don't, oh well.

JESSE:    Our first transmissions started in a group that was split. Some believed it, some didn't.

REBECCA:    That's how it was in Woods Cross at first, too. Thern didn't believe it at the first meeting. Nobody did. I hardly did. Gradually over those few weeks people would come to hear and say, "I can't believe this." They'd bring friends, and pretty soon we had a big group. At first it was pretty hard to believe.

JESSE:    Bored sighs coming from a group could be distracting for the transmitter, I imagine.

REBECCA:    That could throw you off. I can be really rattled by someone fidgeting or snoring. The more nervous you are the harder it is to transmit. You really have to relax and be comfortable.

JESSE:    Do you ever get physical sensations like you are leaving your body, or your body is falling asleep?

REBECCA:    Yes. The first part of a transmission I feel like I'm falling asleep. My consciousness is fading away. I feel the contact then boom, the words start coming. Then I feel like I am above my body. That does not happen all the time.

JESSE:    Is there a feeling you attach to when it is going really well?

REBECCA:    I don't know. I hope that they all go really well.

JESSE:    Have you had any unusual events since the Teaching Mission took off, like you had before it?

REBECCA:    At the 1992 Michael's birthday celebration I was really nervous about it, because I was thinking Michael might transmit through me, and I didn't think I could do it. Deborah was there. I transmitted Ham, and she transmitted Daniel. Then I transmitted Gabriel, and she transmitted the Master. Afterwards I had this vision of the Master walking toward me. I was sitting. He walked toward me and bent down and looked right in my face and put his hand on top of my head and said, "Follow me."

The following year is when I sold the business and moved to Oklahoma. There was a woman living there, Elicia, who was transmitting from the Master these amazing messages. She was a healer. She had had lung cancer. They operated on her and took out one lung, but there was so much cancer, it was in her heart. They sewed her back up and sent her home to die.

JESSE:    Was she a Urantia Book student?

REBECCA:    She wasn't then. Ham and Abraham came to her and gave her instructions for healing.

JESSE:    When you were there?

REBECCA:    This was years ago, before the Teaching Mission. She now is fully recovered from the cancer.

JESSE:    When the Master approached you, was he in morontial form?

REBECCA:    Yes. I had my eyes closed, and I saw it in my mind.

JESSE:    What was it like when he did that?

REBECCA:    I remember crying; I couldn't believe it. After that I felt it was time to follow him.

JESSE:    You felt that he was leading you toward life changes? Even selling your business?

REBECCA:    My father died at that time; he'd been living with me since my mother died. I didn't have anything to keep me there.

JESSE:    After your parents passed, you felt your connection with Salt Lake ended?

REBECCA:    Yes. I needed a break. Everything just clicked. I put the business on the market, and it was gone in a month.

JESSE:    And you moved to...

REBECCA:    Oklahoma. I felt that was following the Master. I had met Elicia when she came out to Salt Lake. We had become really good friends. Jared had come out to Salt Lake; he was instructed to have healings. So, I called him and told him about Elicia, that she could give him healings; that would be a lot closer to Nashville. So, he started going there. Because Jared was coming out there, we got to know each other, and he asked me to marry him. I said, "okay". It turned out great; my life has been beautiful.

JESSE:    He was going to get these healings from you or Thern?

REBECCA:    From Jeremiah. I wasn't doing healings then. I am now.

JESSE:    Let me ask about leadings; you touched on it awhile ago. How do you know when they are real?

REBECCA:    Boy, that's a hard question. I feel it more in my heart, a feeling of "this is right". Sometimes I'll get directions that don't work. You never know. I'll think it's a direction and later on it will kind of change. It's a subtle thing. Nothing has ever happened to me that says, "Now do this," but I've always felt that I was following the Master.

JESSE:    Do you find that when you are following it correctly you get confirmation?

REBECCA:    Yes. I came here to help Jared work on his book. I just felt the Master more than I'd felt him anywhere else; I felt his presence. So, I knew it was right for me to come.

JESSE:    There's no other definitive confirmation?

REBECCA:    Aside from it works out in the end? I guess not.

JESSE:    Sometimes they are not leadings but events that work out into goodness.

REBECCA:    Yes, at first it might seem awful, but it always works out if you're following the way.

JESSE:    Do you feel that what you are called to do is primarily your transmitting?

REBECCA:    Yes.

JESSE:    What do you feel the Teaching Mission holds for you, or where do you think it's going?

REBECCA:    I'm just going to keep plowing on working for Ham every week, typing the transcripts up, and sending them around. I don't know how much they help, but I am going to keep doing it.

JESSE:    They are helpful to us; we really enjoy them. You don't have any long-term feelings as to where the Teaching Mission is going?

REBECCA:    I've been hoping that somebody would publish the transcripts, put something together such that more people could know about it than just the few who do now.

JESSE:    Do you and your group go out and do things together of a service nature?

REBECCA:    One on one? Not in an organized way.

JESSE:    Has Ham told you he is preparing you for something, or are you going day-by-day?

REBECCA:    We just keep going.

JESSE:    When you are transmitting, to your knowledge are there midwayers, Life Carriers? Are you aware of the presence of other supernals?

REBECCA:    Not really. I couldn't tell you that for sure. It seems like there are presences there, but I couldn't tell you who they are.

JESSE:    Thank you, Rebecca.

Back to Table of Contents


INTERVIEW WITH "JEREMIAH" DR. JOHN WORMECK

March 14, 1994

JEREMIAH:    I want to write the early history of the movement.

JESSE:    Have you started?

JEREMIAH:    No, because I'm busy writing other things. I have three projects finished and a fourth halfway through.

JESSE:    What's the fourth one about?

JEREMIAH:    Individuals in the movement. I'm also doing one on healing. There's a couple series I'm going to write. They have a higher priority because they are needed at the moment more than the history.

JESSE:    I'm researching the history because, the more time goes by, the more difficult it will be to contact the New Zealand people to get accurate recollections.

JEREMIAH:    The experience we've had with the New Zealand people is that we write them letters, but they won't answer.

JESSE:    I've talked with them. They're putting together some reference material for me. I'm hoping to get a working copy available for the Spokane conference.

You were talking about the teaching and the pre-teaching mission. What is the difference to you?

JEREMIAH:    For example, for centuries there are people who had contact with various celestial beings, but know people who had them back in the '60s and '70s. They'd been talking to midwayers, Mighty Messengers, and others. Then for various reasons it would just stop. So, there have been quite a few people making contact before the Teaching Mission started. They were even told about the fact that Machiventa would be coming back. Not too many details but enough that now it makes sense when the Teaching Mission started.

JESSE:    Do you know any of the people?

JEREMIAH:    A friend, Karen, her teacher Jack, a midwayer, plus quite a few other ones. Her husband in the past was doing the transmitting. That was late '60s, early '70s. There is Joseph in Sedona. There have been various people, Vern Grimsley's affair; he was talking to different people. Have you read the book, "Ask Your Angel"?

JESSE:    No.

JEREMIAH:    They talk to angels, but you can see that they are talking to angels and also talking to morontia teachers. A lot of New Agers talk to different entities, but they don't know who it is. A New Ager here, a girl I was dating years ago, was automatic writing; but she was inexperienced. Some stuff comes through okay, but other stuff comes through in error. She was inexperienced at transmitting, if you want to call it that. The Toronto Papers came through and Ham's verified they were real. They talked about the problems with the Fellowship and the Foundation. There have been quite a few different transmissions over the years.

When Ham addressed the Fellowship on February 1st '92 in LA he said the Correcting Time officially started that day. So, to me, that's the official start date of Correcting Time, because he said so.

The New Zealand folk were not a Urantia study group; they were just meeting. They were making contact with Abraham and Machiventa and others. They were given the public mission then to make the announcement to all known Urantia Book readers, which they did by contacting the area coordinators. We had a study group in Woods Cross, and we got the paperwork from them when everyone else did.

JESSE:    The one dated July '89.

JEREMIAH:    Yes. We accepted it, fully accepted it. A lot of people did not, or they were indifferent.

JESSE:    What was happening in Woods Cross at that time?

JEREMIAH:    We had our study group. There were 5 or 6 of us: Rebecca, Joshua, Rachel, Melissa and I. Those are our spiritual names.

JESSE:    Do the teachers suggest using your spiritual names and not communicating using your normal names?

JEREMIAH:    In respect to Rebecca for fear of someone causing trouble for her.

JESSE:    But isn't that just as possible for you, sending papers everywhere?

JEREMIAH:    I first asked this of the teachers when we were going to LA for the conference that Ham directed. I asked the teachers if I should use John or Jeremiah. They threw the ball back to me, whatever I wanted to use. So, I used my given name. I think it's up to your own choosing. In the first paper I put out, I was going to use spiritual names, but the others wanted to use their regular given names; we put both in.

JESSE:    Do you sense any long-term risk in using given names associated with the Teaching Mission?

JEREMIAH:    No, you never know. Like when the Master was here and some of the Sanhedrin believed in Jesus in private. I imagine there might be people in the Fellowship or the Foundation who might believe in the teachers; they might even have teacher contact but won't admit it because of politics. There are groups who keep quiet, keep a low profile. That's okay.

We accepted it. I think we were the only group that really did accept. We wrote back, sent some information back and forth. A lot of the questions New Zealand got were hostile, asking funny questions. Later we found out that the Pocatello group didn't accept nor reject the New Zealand material. So, they quite easily accepted the Teaching Mission early, within a year. A lot of groups just rejected the New Zealand group, so they never were approached. Then the New Zealanders sent tapes; we had quite a correspondence.

JESSE:    What was the nature of the correspondence? Were you sending questions?

JEREMIAH:    No, they sent tapes from the sessions to the area coordinator, Joshua. They tried to reach every area coordinator in the whole Urantia movement; that's my understanding. Later they sent to me directly.

JESSE:    What was your initial impression of those tapes?

JEREMIAH:    I thought that they were good and accepted it. Joshua wished it was more. He wasn't too thrilled with what was being said. Most people just rejected or ignored it.

JESSE:    Their initial contact was to area coordinators, not study groups?

JEREMIAH:    Correct. I'm not sure what their real instructions were from Abraham. I just remember them saying they were trying to reach everyone. The problem they faced was the same one I faced trying to send my papers out. How do you get the addresses of people? If you look in the directory from the Fellowship, they don't give full addresses.

JESSE:    You have a fairly extensive, accurate database of Urantia groups?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, because I was making those mailings. I just did that first one. The other paper I did not send out to study groups, only to teacher groups.

JESSE:    What kind of reaction did you get to the first mailing?

JEREMIAH:    Out of about 300, I only got about 15 people who said anything. All of them were positive; they thought it was really great. There was one person, a trustee, who sent a little card saying, "Take me off your mailing list." One couple the husband didn't want to be on the list and the wife did. All the other groups I didn't send anything more to because I didn't want to harass them. There are a lot of people who think that if you look at the teachers or the Teaching Mission you are dealing with the work of the devil. They want to make sure they publicly say they don't believe in it and to take their names off mailing lists. That's okay.

JESSE:    What were the factors that made you embrace the Teaching Mission so readily?

JEREMIAH:    I just knew inside. I've been told by teachers that I was the first one to join the Teaching Mission because I just had a gift of faith.

JESSE:    You mean the first one in the United States?

JEREMIAH:    They just said the first one in the Correcting Time.

JESSE:    Because of your faith?

JEREMIAH:    Faith is a gift from the Father.

JESSE:    What is your religious upbringing?

JEREMIAH:    I was raised in the old German Reform Church.

JESSE:    You grew up where?

JEREMIAH:    Philadelphia. My father and his mother were in the Reform Church, which had sermons in German before the war in 1917. Then they were in English. My mother was raised Catholic. She grew up in an orphan's' home.

JESSE:    What was your experience in the Reform Church?

JEREMIAH:    I sang in the choir. My mother also took me to the Catholic mass once in a while to show me there were other ways of doing things. In those days mass was in Latin, so you couldn't understand what they were saying. We moved upstate, and my father died when I was eleven. In my teens my mother used to take me down to the same church in Harrisburg. As I got older I started to question. What got to me the most is that religious teaching didn't advance with my understanding. Little stories they tell you when you are in third grade are cute, but when you get older somehow they are the same old stories. They don't update your awareness or knowledge. I went to college when I was 17.

JESSE:    And what school was that?

JEREMIAH:    Indiana Institute of Technology. Meredith Sprunger, you know him? He exposes everyone who takes his philosophy class to The Urantia Book.

JESSE:    He was a professor there?

JEREMIAH:    Yes. He was in charge of the humanities department. Later he was president of the college. It's an undergraduate school, engineering. He taught philosophy, a required subject. So, everyone who graduated from the school - that's 1500 students - they all had exposure to The Urantia Book.

JESSE:    Wow! Wonderful.

JEREMIAH:    They would read Papers in his class. I accepted it then. I did not have my own book; we just used books he had set up in the library.

JESSE:    Your first exposure to The Urantia Book was through Meredith Sprunger?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, in 1967. I had to find my own book. I was in Connecticut after graduating. I couldn't find it in Connecticut; none of the libraries had it. I didn't get my own copy till I was in graduate school in Washington State in '72. After that I read the book in the closet until about '86. I never heard it mentioned by anyone else. Then in '86 I contacted the Foundation, and they gave me a list of study groups.

JESSE:    Where were you at the time?

JEREMIAH:    Moving around Nevada, California, then back to the University of Utah to do research. That's when I found out there were study groups, and I got a hold of Joshua. I joined his study group, which was suspended at the time because his wife was dying of cancer. When she passed away we started up again.

JESSE:    Let's get back to the origin of the study group there and the initial teaching contact.

JEREMIAH:    The way it got started was a few years earlier Rebecca got a message from her Thought Adjuster asking her if she wanted to be in the reserve corps of destiny.

JESSE:    When was this?

JEREMIAH:    I don't know, '87, '88.

JESSE:    This was before the Teaching Mission?

JEREMIAH:    Oh, yes. She came to the study group and reported that her Thought Adjuster asked her if she wanted to be part of the Reserve Corps of Destiny, and of course she said yes.

JESSE:    What was the reaction of the group at the time?

JEREMIAH:    It was real exciting. We were happy, pleased that she was asked and allowed to be that.

JESSE:    Had she ever mentioned before being in contact with her Thought Adjuster?

JEREMIAH:    It was the first time I'd ever heard of anyone being in contact.

JESSE:    Did you doubt?

JEREMIAH:    No. What does it mean? What happens? What you read in The Urantia Book is that most of the time you are unconscious of it. Only a few times are you consciously aware of being a reservist, and also you are only called to action briefly once in a while for an emergency.

JESSE:    If there are any factors involved in her ability to have that kind of contact, what would they be?

JEREMIAH:    Looking back now?

JESSE:    Yes. Rebecca personally being chosen, as far as you know her.

JEREMIAH:    She's a very spiritual person.

JESSE:    What do you mean by that?

JEREMIAH:    Her whole desire in life is to do what she can to serve the Father. I really liked her; she's a real nice person. I've enjoyed her the years I've known here since '86.

JESSE:    Very committed to doing the Father's will, is that what you define spiritual to be?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, and other attributes: loving, kind, tolerant, all the fruits. She radiates a spiritual luminosity. You can see the Father in her.

JESSE:    Any physical habits that you think contributed to this also? Was she vegetarian; was she a health-conscious person; did she exercise?

JEREMIAH:    I didn't really look at any of those things. She worked really long, hard hours at her dry cleaning business, which tired her all the time. The teachers want to approach Urantia Book readers because they have a pretty good background. Still, they have been approaching other people who have nothing to do with The Urantia Book. Whatever the religious beliefs, you work with them at that level. It's easiest to work in the United States because English seems to be the main language of the future. We found out that our teachers have been with us since we were young. They didn't just come in the last year or two.

JESSE:    Are you serious?

JEREMIAH:    They've been with us since even before birth by projections. This is a major movement. A lot of people think the movement just came out of the clear blue sky like a new religion, like the Mormon Church here in Utah. This has been planned for a long, long time. I believe it's part of the fifth epochal revelation. The Urantia Book was the first part; this is the next part. It was anticipated that the Lucifer Rebellion was going to be fully adjudicated, so all this was put together just like any major epochal revelation such as when Machiventa came or the Master or Adam and Eve.

JESSE:    I'd like to hook some of the history together because it starts when Jesus accomplished supreme sovereignty on Mount Hermon, which was confirmed at his baptism later.

JEREMIAH:    Michael envisioned this mission when he was on the earth 2000 years ago.

JESSE:    Do you think the Teaching Mission is what he referred to as his return?

JEREMIAH:    No, well, he's coming, yes. He promised he would come again, and this is the forerunner of his coming. Machiventa is a forerunner of his coming, and I believe Machiventa is coming. Do you sense that the Melchizedeks are going to incarnate?

JESSE:    Do I accept that? I'm not sure what that actually means. If they incarnate and walk the earth, or are we talking about a Material Son and Daughter incarnation?

JEREMIAH:    You see, the Teaching Mission hasn't directly announced everything that's going to happen. They talk; then it's up to people's faith.

JESSE:    Machiventa may materialize to people in the Teaching Mission or he may not be visible to those don't believe in it.

JEREMIAH:    The way I look at it, he is coming to teach and live just like he did 4000 years ago. He'll be here in person; you wouldn't be able to tell him from another. His coming is as a forerunner to Michael himself, who will also come that way.

JESSE:    In the flesh?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, the second coming that everybody talks about in Christianity.

JESSE:    You think Michael himself will incarnate?

JEREMIAH:    Yes.

JESSE:    What would be the purpose of a second incarnation?

JEREMIAH:    Because he promised he would come again.

JESSE:    Specifically it says he will come in power and glory.

JEREMIAH:    No one knows when he is coming; no one knows how he is coming. It's his prerogative.

JESSE:    Do you have more evidence that suggests to you that he will come in the flesh?

JEREMIAH:    I have transmissions, but all that is on faith. Others' have transmissions that say the opposite. It's up to what you are open to. The teachers have projections on what spiritually and intellectually is positive and ready by genetic upbringing and other things, just like when they were looking for who was going to father the master: what country was he coming to, what generation, and who are going to be his parents. When Machiventa came, Abraham was a chosen individual. Why was he chosen? I look at the Correcting Time the same way. We're finding it as it unfolds. They're choosing people by projecting who are going to remain and be open and have the faith.

Our study group was previously-projected as being receptive to the new Teaching Mission and Ruby to being a transmitter, because they did announce this formally, coming out of New Zealand, most groups said "to heck with it." Our group responded fully and positively and respected them. We were told that the New Zealand folk did their public mission very successfully, and then they were done. They are back doing private things. I like to look at it as the John the Baptist-type role.

JESSE:    I want to touch on some of your earlier spiritual highlights, because I believe that a lot of the people involved have been waiting for something like this since they were youngsters. From interviews I find that this is a commonality among those who stick with it after the initial fireworks have died down. Do you agree with that?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, I do. I know people who have. A problem when you write this kind of paper is that you are not going to get full information. I know a middle aged woman who has had a teacher ever since she was a young girl. When the Teaching Mission came by their group, she went too and had talks with them. She was told her teacher was phony. She knows better; she had a spiritual relationship talking, transmitting with him all her life. She just dismissed that. Later it turns out the teachers themselves made a mistake, including Machiventa. He knew of that teacher; he didn't know who he was assigned to, which mortal. Then, when he realized that, he apologized through another TR. Still, some people in that group don't accept that, and she has had a lot of trouble. She has two teachers.

I have two teachers, too, one from before the mission, one with the mission. I use the terms spiritual teacher and a personal teacher. I had direct contact before the Teaching Mission. I'm kind of dense; even to make teacher contact it took me way over a year. In How to Make Teacher Contact I mention that. I don't know of anyone who struggled longer than I did. I'm a scientist, so I'm logical. My mind is open that way, but I seem to be open for subconscious ideas.

Everyone's a little different. I have had real problems. Nolus, my wife, came on quickly and really well. I had to put a little pressure on her to get her over her fears. Even today I don't really hear words; I just get ideas. Some people actually hear words; most of us get ideas. Some see visualizations of written words.

JESSE:    How do you differentiate between those ideas and ideas originating from your Thought Adjuster?

JEREMIAH:    It's really hard. I've been told that when I transmit I relax and open up and just force the start. Sometimes I feel a pressure build up. But I don't hear a message like Abraham or Ham wants to talk to me now. The other transmitter will tell me that now he wants to speak through me. Usually what happens is that Nolus and I will talk. The other day, for example, I sensed that Abraham was there, so we started transmitting; she transmitted first. It was Abraham, and he said a little bit through her. Then he said, "I will speak the rest through Jeremiah." So, now I was on line.

Even though the mission is two years old, I still don't want to doubt myself, or I will shut down. I've been told that is my biggest problem. If you think you can't do it, then it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just do it. So, I started talking, and I talked for half an hour, and all these ideas are in my head. If I tried to just keep talking without a teacher, you can't keep going subject to subject. It's really subtle. It has caused trouble for people who sense how difficult it is and feel other transmitters are having the same problem. They get in arguments over who is accurate and who isn't.

JESSE:    I feel the accuracy comes out over the breadth and volume. You will see threads that will start to be confirmed or not confirmed. They will build. Through the volume you see the great simple truths.

JEREMIAH:    Yes, you see new ideas, new mission guidance. It is more than just lessons on love and tolerance like they were in the beginning. It's fairly easy to transmit what I call spiritual messages, but when you start transmitting directions and facts then it's harder. As a healer, I want to transmit a Life Carrier on what to do for someone for healing; that's a little important.

JESSE:    How does that work out for you?

JEREMIAH:    Nolus does a much better job than I do. We get good input. It feels good; that's the Spirit of Truth working within you.

JESSE:    Let's go back to the history of the group. Rebecca was getting contacts, then...

JEREMIAH:    She just reported that one contact, initially, asking her to be part of the Reserve Corps of Destiny. Then a year and a half or so nothing. Then she got contact, and the teacher's name was Ham. He wanted to start that next Thursday night. That was my birthday, February 28, 1991. That was the first time they met, and teacher Ham came. I was in Albuquerque. It was a poor transmission because it was her first time trying to transmit.

JESSE:    Was she low volume?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, she's always low volume. She couldn't get the words and would break and stop. We gave her plenty of time to come on line. A lot of groups today want their T/R's to come on so fast, they discourage a lot of them. But she came on, and they started meeting every Thursday. The second week he got better taping. He was making these tapes available, sending them out to me.

I started coming up during the week in April to hear Ham directly. I asked him if this is the group I belonged to, and he said yes. Later I started thinking this is real and something I want to be part of.

Then they moved the meetings to Monday night. So, I arranged with my employer in Albuquerque to work Saturday and Sunday and take off Monday and Tuesday. I'd jump in the car and drive 620 miles to Salt Lake, catch the meeting, and turn around and drive back down. I did that for about four months, about 20,000 miles. Then I made the decision to quit and move to Salt Lake.

JESSE:    This was when?

JEREMIAH:    In August of '91.

JESSE:    Was the transmission process constantly improving?

JEREMIAH:    Yes. She became a good T/R.

JESSE:    What do you think are the factors involved in that?

JEREMIAH:    Experience. She was trying to be that way. My understanding is that when the Teaching Mission started, a lot of T/R's were flagged that were really good, because people were making decisions based on these transmitters. At that time we had no idea about who else would transmit, that it was open for everybody. And they were good. Later when it opened up that we all had potential for doing it, and we all had private teachers, then there was a lot of confusion. A lot of people left, problems materialized. Then everybody was transmitting. Some were better then others just because they had, what does it take? It takes faith; it takes practice; it takes a certain receptivity. Everybody is a little bit different.

I take the stand that you should never critique a transmitter. They are valuable, and all are acceptable. Some people reject transmitters and are critical of them. It's devastating. I'm writing this third paper on that problem, because I think we should not critique anyone's transmitting.

Well, Rebecca was really good. In the beginning she was just transmitting on the one weekday. Then we found out about having private meetings. We had to request them, and it was awhile if you were accepted. A little while later Jason was able to transmit.

JESSE:    Was he a good transmitter?

JEREMIAH:    Yes, I think the reason Jason came on was so that he could support Rebecca. She's transmitting, but she has no one to listen to. They could get together, and Jason could transmit for her. There was quite a bit she needed input on. Abraham would talk to her through Jason. This was reassuring and encouraging, coaching and teaching her. So, this was very wise.

I made the decision to come join the Mission full-time. I moved up; Jason helped me. After I made that decision was when I got some of my assignments. You don't say, "The spiritual plane doesn't work," or "Let me listen to the new jobs you have. If I like it I'll come." Because everybody will go to a better job. You have to make decisions up front, first, that are based on faith and decisions and actions and patience.

JESSE:    Yes, I felt strongly led to take on this research assignment. Tell me a little bit about how the group evolved. You said it started out with five people. At one time it was up to 40. Now it's back to 4 or 5?

JEREMIAH:    Joshua had that study group since I think '77. There were people years ago who used to come, but they dropped out. When Teacher Ham started coming, Joshua called everybody that he knew was in the old study group or were Urantia Book readers. Some would come and just not accept it and leave. Others stayed.

JESSE:    Did it really grow to 40 people?

JEREMIAH:    Yes. It started growing; other people would mention it to their friends and relatives. Quite a few didn't have anything to do with The Urantia Book. They see a new channeler in town, and they just came to listen. Some come; some go; some stay.

JESSE:    You used to meet in Thern's basement.

JEREMIAH:    Yes. We had about 18 regulars there. When we grew to about 20 we rented a facility. We were up in the 40s, 44 or so when Teacher Ham left.

JESSE:    Ham left when the group was in the 40s?

JEREMIAH:    Yes.

JESSE:    Then Rebecca had a calling to go to another place. She seems very happy.

JEREMIAH:    I haven't seen her since then. I know Jared, because he came through here to visit the year before. I gave him a healing.

JESSE:    What were the reasons Ham gave for leaving?

JEREMIAH:    Because a lot of people were getting too dependent on Rebecca transmitting.

JESSE:    Do you think that was true?

JEREMIAH:    Oh, yeah. They are only going to spoon-feed you for so long. It is your choice. Most people didn't want to, really.

JESSE:    What do you consider graduate school?

JEREMIAH:    The teachers wanted us to make our own contact, develop our personal relationships with our own teachers. You do the stillness with the Father and start to become more active in the mission calling, doing work assignments. There were questions about it, and everybody was getting prompts. Some responded, some didn't. Abraham, a couple of times, talked about people becoming a T/R, getting instructions. A lot of people didn't want to do it.

JESSE:   As a physicist you know when something that is not in motion is able to resist motion.

JEREMIAH:   Right. People have fear and doubt about the Teaching Mission and teachers.

JESSE:   How was Rebecca able to transmit so well among 40 people, many of whom must have been highly skeptical?

JEREMIAH:   In the beginning, those who were skeptical left. We didn't have anybody jump at her or diss her. They would tell us but not her. She would quickly leave because she was always tired. She worked long hours at her business.

JESSE:   Are you still getting group transcripts?

JEREMIAH:   No. We hear from them individually. Once in a while we will duck into a meeting. In general, we don't get any transmissions in the group. As I understand it, the group decided it didn't want any transmissions. Others will argue.

Let me fall back. Ham left because he wanted people to develop relationships with their Thought Adjusters and their own private teachers, to do their homework. People in the main chose not to do so. Okay, Ham went away then. He did come back about six months later. Nolus was the denominated T/R; Ham encouraged her to start. She had trouble with names. I was given the responsibility to help her learn the spiritual names of everybody in the group. Well, I failed and in the first transmission she got their names wrong. People got really turned off and rejected her.

Everyone transmitting wanted to become the greatest transmitter, with all kinds of new information. People are disappointed when they just transmit concepts out of The Urantia Book, things they already know. They want proof, to transmit something they didn't know, something that turns out to be true, like fortune telling. If you are looking for those "show business" signs, you know what is going to happen. You won't get anything like Ham.

JESSE:   What is the character of your group now?

JEREMIAH:   Ham left a year ago when we were just sitting there trying to resolve what to do. We started getting into political plays, fights; it was negative. Half the group just left. People were coming just to hear Ham's lessons; well, you can just read the transcripts. If you have the '91 transcripts you will see the level and the input of these transmissions. The questions are edited. You can see the evolution of people, the questions they ask. I asked endless questions every time I had a chance; most of them are not spiritual, just curiosity, intellectual. Eventually you learn that this is not the way you do things. You see a change in character.

JESSE:   What caused the political plays, and what do you mean by that?

JEREMIAH:   Some people just want to run an organization; they don't want anyone else running it. A lot of people don't want anyone else being their leader. Others are just suspicious characters. Some don't like others' styles. When others start transmitting they get something different. Now you have arguments over, "This is what the teachers said." "No, it isn't." It can cause a lot of trouble. If you look at those '91 transcripts they were nice lessons followed by questions and answers. Nearly everybody in the beginning thought they were true and perfect, that Rebecca was talking completely with celestial beings. Later when you find out the possibility of making mistakes, how the process works, it opens up a whole new avenue.

JESSE:   What is your take on errors in transmitting?

JEREMIAH:   If you feel really strongly about a certain subject chances are you will be biased. A woman I wrote about who did automatic writing was writing all kinds of neat stuff that was way beyond her knowledge. When she started talking about New Age topics like reincarnation and walk-ins, I said, "Wait a minute here. This violates The Urantia Book. It doesn't feel right with me." I started arguing with the entity she was writing. I can't transmit, and I was trying to learn. I ask other people for transmissions to see what was going on. Then I found out that, like Abraham was saying, even though she had been writing for two and a half years, she was what he called "an inexperienced transmitter." You just dismiss those topics she was transmitting because that's what she believes in because she is a New-Ager.

There are endless books out there that are supposedly channeled or transmitted. The teachers will never say what is good or bad. They just say, "You read it, discern what's good for you, and leave the rest." My attitude is when anyone transmits, I accept it unless I know different. If two people are transmitting something that's opposite each other, then you have a conflict. I try to think that they are both right. If a transmission is a little different, then you have to say, "I think this is the way it is. The other way is not right."

JESSE:   Has Roland been a transmitter for the group, too?

JEREMIAH:   Yes. First there was Rebecca, then Jason. The next one to come on line was Roland. In January Rebecca decided to quit doing private meetings. Ham asked her to have one for the Colorado group, four of them came over from Colorado. She accepted that, and that was the last of the private meetings

JESSE:   From which group?

JEREMIAH:   The people from Boulder. They rejected the Teaching Mission. I think that we were unwise. We were laying too much out. They were asking questions, so we started explaining things in a couple-hour talk that we took six months or a year to learn. We didn't lay out anything private. Still, what we did say was too much too fast, too overwhelming.

JESSE:   They have grown to be vehemently against the Teaching Mission.

JEREMIAH:   But, you see, the Boulder people have been very active with the Fellowship. They do bookstores, booths at fairs. They really promote the book. If any kind of planetary government was going to come back to the planet actively, it would surely come through the Urantia Fellowship or Foundation, right? Just like the Pope would say it would come through the Vatican. If you ask any of the 800 million Catholics if the Master is coming again, or any kind of input from God, it would come through the Vatican, right? Here in Utah it would be the Mormon Church. That's the problem. If you look in The Urantia Book at the way celestials work, they never come through established priesthoods. The Master didn't come through Jerusalem. The Urantia Book came in the middle of Chicago, which, at the turn of the century, was nothing.

JESSE:   Of course, I don't know that you could consider the Foundation or Fellowship as established priesthoods, although it is, in a sense, for The Urantia Book.

JEREMIAH:   If you accept The Urantia Book then you would automatically think it would come to them because they are the organization.

JESSE:   Regardless of what they say or publish, I think their intentions are basically good.

JEREMIAH:   They're good, but if you put yourself in their moccasins, they are coming from fear or disappointment or jealousy. They can't conceive of any celestial input coming from outsiders. We told the Boulder people about our experience with the information we got transmitted to us, and they thought it can't be. We had some people from California come over and the same thing; this can't be. We learned a lot. A little bit of light is illuminating, too much is blinding.

JESSE:   A thread running through the transcripts is psychological, as well as physical, healing. I suppose one reason is so we can file off some of our rough edges and get along better as a group of humans. How do you feel about the long term or short-term of the Teaching Mission?

JEREMIAH:   Short term is for everybody to transmit who is willing, to develop relationships with their Thought Adjusters, with their private teachers, and to get in touch and start making decisions on how active and how communicative they are going to be. In The Urantia Book there is a section called "Counting the Cost". Some people are deciding whether they want to be an apostle, a disciple, a believer at whatever level.

*  *  *  *  *

"I, Machiventa, a Melchizedek, desire my humankind companions
to communicate in all good faith, with all good intent, each to
each, keeping in mind the fragility of truth, so easily bruised by
thoughtlessness. I entrust to my humankind companions the fruits
and love we have for humankind. It is through persons such as
yourselves that God's work may be done."


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